David,



In answering question #14. "What do effective approaches to teaching numeracy look like?" I always rely on the Socratic approach.  Of course, I'm a disciple of Socratic teaching for ALL teaching.  Students become engaged when a question is directed whether it's numeracy or social studies.  Also, a revisiting of teacher "wait time" I think is worth mentioning.  It is vital for all students but especially those with dyscalculia or fundamentally slower processors.  I've enjoyed the dialogue.  Thanks.

Mari John
Kansas

-----Original Message-----
From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of specialtopics-request at nifl.gov
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:28 PM
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
Subject: SpecialTopics Digest, Vol 14, Issue 43

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Today's Topics:

   1. [SpecialTopics 718] Re: Productive disposition
      (steinkedb at earthlink.net)
   2. [SpecialTopics 719]  The Last day of Numeracy Discussion is
      Friday (David J. Rosen)
   3. [SpecialTopics 720] Re: Productive disposition (Michael Tate)
   4. [SpecialTopics 721] Re: Productive disposition (Kathie Daviau)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:12:31 -0600
From: <steinkedb at earthlink.net>
Subject: [SpecialTopics 718] Re: Productive disposition
To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>
Message-ID: <EEEMJLGBLKAIEEGPGDHNGEMACGAA.steinkedb at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jan and all:

It has to do with the 3 Stages model of children's development of number
sense developed by Les Steffe and refined by Paul Cobb. In their book
Construction of Arithmetical Meanings and Strategies (1988) they noted that
when children were about to enter the third stage (i.e., to grasp the
Part/Whole concept) their counting took on rhythmic characteristics.

Another author, Eloise Ristad: A Soprano on Her Head,  found that her piano
students who lacked an ability to keep a steady beat had not cross-crawled
as infants (i.e., left hand and right knee move together, then right hand
and left knee move together). That is, infants who rolled, scooted or
crawled left-side/right-side never established an internal steady beat.
Establishing a steady beat by cross-crawling is how we come to understand
the equal distance between the counting numbers on a number line as
preschoolers. If adults have not cross-crawled and never were exposed to a
number line, they may not have that sense of "equal distance of 1" between
the counting numbers. Hence, no number sense.

Other research also points to the importance of cross-crawling. I was at a
recent conference for preschool staff (state deparment of education
sponsored it). The word from the physical therapy people was that if infants
do not cross-crawl by 15 months there is concern that the normal development
process is not progressing as it should.

I know this is a little off the topic, but it may be of help.

Dorothea Steinke
  -----Original Message-----
  From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Goldberg, Jan (ACS)
  Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:09 PM
  To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
  Subject: [SpecialTopics 713] Re: Productive disposition


  What is the hypothesis behind your  correlation between rolling over,
scooting, crawling and level of math literacy achieved?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

  From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of steinkedb at earthlink.net
  Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:03 PM
  To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
  Subject: [SpecialTopics 712] Re: Productive disposition



  Melvin: What specifically edludes them?  Can they do single digit addition
OK? Is multiplication OK? Does the breakdown come at subtraction and
division? If so, are their answers in subtraction off by 1 all the time?  I
have an idea of how to get started with them if this last is true.



  Another thing: Ask if they can ask a parent how they moved as an infant.
Did they roll over and over or scoot on their bottom and never crawl?



  Dorothea

    -----Original Message-----
    From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Melvin Rice
    Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:04 PM
    To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
    Subject: [SpecialTopics 710] Re: Productive disposition





    Melvin Rice

    ABE Instructor

    Kansas City Kansas Community College

    melvinr at kckcc.edu



    >>> <steinkedb at earthlink.net> 9/20/2007 8:57 AM >>>

    About test anxiety and "productive disposition":



    Melvin - My comments about Part/Whole concept are based on work by Les
Steffe (emeritus of the University of Georgia) and others. There may be
other developmental concepts besides Part/Whole that your "dyscalculia"
students missed somewhere along the line. Can you give a description of the
specific things your students seem unable to do? (I'm assuming your students
are of normal mental development and have not had traumatic brain injury.)



    Dorothea Steinke



    Hi Dorothea,



    Now keep in mind that I am no diagnostician, but a simple ABE math
instructor. That being said, The students I am thinking of are of average or
higher intelligence. However the basics of math such as number sense, basic
math facts, and simple computation constantly evade them. For the past year,
not only have I worked with them one-on-one as well as a traditional class
setting, but I have also had a math tutor working with them. They appear to
grasp a concept while working with it and then a few minutes later it is
gone. This does not happen with them in other disciplines, only math. I have
seen one of the students come to tears in frustration over not being able to
retain what was just covered minutes earlier. I have been using several of
the techniques picked up from the TIAN sessions I have attended, such as
calculators, manipulatives, and other hands-on material as well as the
EMPower books and this seems to be helping some. I really found the article
by Dr. Kenyon which I referenced in my earlier post to be enlightening and
provide another framework in which to view students who struggle with math.



    Melvin


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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:44:59 -0400
From: "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net>
Subject: [SpecialTopics 719]  The Last day of Numeracy Discussion is
        Friday
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
Message-ID: <24DFBE3F-5931-4973-A539-17AE15341098 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
        format=flowed

Colleagues,

Now is the time, if you haven't yet, to post your questions and
comments.  The numeracy discussion ends Friday.

Here are the last four questions from me, and others who have asked
me to post a question:

13. The math test is the most frequently failed test on the GED
battery. Why is math so hard for people?

14. What do effective approaches to teaching numeracy look like?

15. Most tests that are used in adult education and for college
placement focus mainly on skills. How does teaching numeracy with all
its components prepare adults for these tests? Wouldn?t a focus on
practicing computation skills be a more efficient preparation for them?

16. You suggest that numeracy is a complex proficiency that involves
the intertwining of multiple skills and understandings.  How do you
recognize growth in something like conceptual understanding?


David J. Rosen
Special Topics Discussion Moderator
djrosen at comcast.net





------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:02:36 -0700
From: "Michael Tate" <mtate at sbctc.edu>
Subject: [SpecialTopics 720] Re: Productive disposition
To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>
Message-ID:
        <0CA6C79FCB4AC642A77B76C17A4316EE01EBF0C6 at exch-1.sbctc2.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

*         Interactive Metronome (now available on software) has been
found to be very helpful for sequencing and coordination, as well as
improving attention and concentration and helping reduce impulsivity.
It's found its way into professional  golf where it is used to improve
concentration and coordination.  I've seen it help learners with ADHD,
but there are claims it also helps those with sensory integration
disorder, non-verbal Learning disorder, autism spectrum disorder and
cerebral palsy.  It looks (and feels) like a second chance to get the
math concepts Dorothea is talking about.

Michael Tate

From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of
steinkedb at earthlink.net
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:13 PM
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
Subject: [SpecialTopics 718] Re: Productive disposition



Jan and all:



It has to do with the 3 Stages model of children's development of number
sense developed by Les Steffe and refined by Paul Cobb. In their book
Construction of Arithmetical Meanings and Strategies (1988) they noted
that when children were about to enter the third stage (i.e., to grasp
the Part/Whole concept) their counting took on rhythmic characteristics.




Another author, Eloise Ristad: A Soprano on Her Head,  found that her
piano students who lacked an ability to keep a steady beat had not
cross-crawled as infants (i.e., left hand and right knee move together,
then right hand and left knee move together). That is, infants who
rolled, scooted or crawled left-side/right-side never established an
internal steady beat. Establishing a steady beat by cross-crawling is
how we come to understand the equal distance between the counting
numbers on a number line as preschoolers. If adults have not
cross-crawled and never were exposed to a number line, they may not have
that sense of "equal distance of 1" between the counting numbers. Hence,
no number sense.



Other research also points to the importance of cross-crawling. I was at
a recent conference for preschool staff (state deparment of education
sponsored it). The word from the physical therapy people was that if
infants do not cross-crawl by 15 months there is concern that the normal
development process is not progressing as it should.



I know this is a little off the topic, but it may be of help.



Dorothea Steinke

        -----Original Message-----
        From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Goldberg, Jan (ACS)
        Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:09 PM
        To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
        Subject: [SpecialTopics 713] Re: Productive disposition

        What is the hypothesis behind your  correlation between rolling
over, scooting, crawling and level of math literacy achieved?

________________________________

        From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of
steinkedb at earthlink.net
        Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:03 PM
        To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
        Subject: [SpecialTopics 712] Re: Productive disposition



        Melvin: What specifically edludes them?  Can they do single
digit addition OK? Is multiplication OK? Does the breakdown come at
subtraction and division? If so, are their answers in subtraction off by
1 all the time?  I have an idea of how to get started with them if this
last is true.



        Another thing: Ask if they can ask a parent how they moved as an
infant. Did they roll over and over or scoot on their bottom and never
crawl?



        Dorothea

                -----Original Message-----
                From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Melvin Rice
                Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:04 PM
                To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
                Subject: [SpecialTopics 710] Re: Productive disposition





                Melvin Rice

                ABE Instructor

                Kansas City Kansas Community College

                melvinr at kckcc.edu



                >>> <steinkedb at earthlink.net> 9/20/2007 8:57 AM >>>

                About test anxiety and "productive disposition":



                Melvin - My comments about Part/Whole concept are based
on work by Les Steffe (emeritus of the University of Georgia) and
others. There may be other developmental concepts besides Part/Whole
that your "dyscalculia" students missed somewhere along the line. Can
you give a description of the specific things your students seem unable
to do? (I'm assuming your students are of normal mental development and
have not had traumatic brain injury.)



                Dorothea Steinke



                Hi Dorothea,



                Now keep in mind that I am no diagnostician, but a
simple ABE math instructor. That being said, The students I am thinking
of are of average or higher intelligence. However the basics of math
such as number sense, basic math facts, and simple computation
constantly evade them. For the past year, not only have I worked with
them one-on-one as well as a traditional class setting, but I have also
had a math tutor working with them. They appear to grasp a concept while
working with it and then a few minutes later it is gone. This does not
happen with them in other disciplines, only math. I have seen one of the
students come to tears in frustration over not being able to retain what
was just covered minutes earlier. I have been using several of the
techniques picked up from the TIAN sessions I have attended, such as
calculators, manipulatives, and other hands-on material as well as the
EMPower books and this seems to be helping some. I really found the
article by Dr. Kenyon which I referenced in my earlier post to be
enlightening and provide another framework in which to view students who
struggle with math.



                Melvin



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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 19:20:52 -0600
From: "Kathie Daviau" <daviauk at billings.k12.mt.us>
Subject: [SpecialTopics 721] Re: Productive disposition
To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>
Message-ID:
        <8728940CA8973249ABCFCF502B57BF2207A35392 at exchange.billings.k12.mt.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

AFT's ER&D (Educational Research and Dissemination) program has a class called Thinking Math.  They have developed Thinking Math 1, 2, 3, and Middle School.  The classes are fantastic; all based on level three research.  The classes show you the research and then how to apply it to your situation. If you have these programs available to you, I strongly recommend them.
Kathie


-----Original Message-----
From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Judy Ward
Sent: Thu 9/20/2007 2:09 PM
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
Subject: [SpecialTopics 716] Re: Productive disposition

One point concerning a student's math and test anxiety that hasn't been
discussed is the anxiety level of the instructor related to teaching a
subject with which they have difficulty themselves. Many adult educators are
not prepared to teach math because of their week backgrounds which adds to
their anxiety level. They receive very little or no training for teaching
math and tend to teach the way they were taught. The majority of the
instructors who participated in the 3 year numeracy professional development
program I did in my state had never had any instruction in how to teach
math. There were a number of them who, after learning through the use of
manipulatives and visual methods what a fraction really meant, reacted in a
very emotional manner. These instructors had always thought that math was
beyond their understanding but yet, they were trying to help others learn
math. At the end of each semester several instructors would approach me with
"thankful tears" for finally receiving some help.



Judy



-----Original Message-----
From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]
On Behalf Of Melvin Rice
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 11:48 AM
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
Subject: [SpecialTopics 695] Re: Productive disposition






>>> "Lynda Ginsburg" <ginsburg at rci.rutgers.edu> 9/18/2007 9:30 PM >>>

Lenny, Pam and David,

I agree that many adults are anxious about math, and it often has to do
with tests. Lenny, your strategy of practicing for the test situation
until some of the fear subsided seems to have worked well.

In addition to anxiety there may be the possibility of a math specific
learning disability. I read an interesting article in the NCSALL publication
"Focus on Basics" on a condition called Dyscalculia. The article is
available on line at http://www.ncsall.net/?id=325 . According to the
article there are some specific signs of this condition, many of which I
have seen in a couple of my students.



Melvin



Melvin Rice

ABE Instructor

Kansas City Kansas Community College

melvinr at kckcc.edu


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