Hi Dave and all,

I was struck by this phrase from your first post:

--I stir the pot by drawing a Venn diagram with numeracy being a nice big 
circle and math being a circle smaller than numeracy with most of math 
being inside the numeracy circle!

Also this phrase from Mathematics and Democracy:

--Numeracy is not just one among many subjects but an integral part of all 
subjects.

What if we move from "the pot" to a different container (say, a frying 
pan, to be closer to the fire....) and say that a) mathematics 
b)reading/writing are two overlapping small circles; that c)literacy is a 
circle which encircles [most of] a) and [all of] b); and that d) numeracy 
is The Big Kahuna that encircles them all. After all, Pythagoras said that 
"everything is number" (...though you may ask, "Yes, Pythagoras was a 
mathematician, but was he numerate?")

(And if numeracy were the big circle, yes, Esther, the pedagogy might need 
to change...)




"Dave Tout" <davet at cae.edu.au> 
Sent by: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
09/19/07 07:05 AM
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Subject
[SpecialTopics 691] Re: "numeracy" vs. "mathematical literacy"






Hi David and all,

A brief response re the numeracy vs math terminology. I agree learners
often only use and know the term math (or "maths" down under) and in
some of our curriculum frameworks we specifically call our stream
"numeracy AND mathematics". Which some people find a bit unusual.

Cheers

Dave
______________________________________________________
Dave Tout, Manager, Educational Quality and Compliance, CAE
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-----Original Message-----
From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of David J. Rosen
Sent: 19 September 2007 10:58 AM
To: specialtopics at nifl.gov
Subject: [SpecialTopics 687] Re: "numeracy" vs. "mathematical literacy"

Lynda, Mary Jane and Myrna,

Let's look at this question from the perspective of potential adult 
learners.  I have talked to graduates from adult literacy programs -- 
adult learner leaders -- who object to the term "literacy" because, 
they said, they could read just fine.  They needed help, they said, 
with math.  They complained that the terms "literacy", or "reading", 
as a name for a program (e.g. "The Literacy Project" "the Adult 
Reading Program" and similar names) obscures that the program offers 
numeracy ("math" as students call this) .  One woman said she went 
for years without getting help because she didn't know adult basic 
math classes existed in her town, and the program that could help her 
was just a few blocks away from where she lived! So although there 
may be good reasons for using "numeracy" among practitioners, let's 
hope that "math" appears alongside in the program promotional 
materials so adult learners can find the services they need.

I am reminded of a discussion that I was in recently about what to 
name a new corporate online workplace ESOL program. One of the 
seasoned teachers in the room said, it doesn't really matter as long 
as the name begins with "English" because that's what the students 
will call it, "English class". And we all agreed.

I have some more questions about the study:

7. On Page 27, you write: "The mathematical demands of today's 
technological society are different from those of earlier decades. 
Some concepts have become more important for coping with the demands 
while others are not as critical as they once were." What are the 
concepts that are not as important now, and what concepts are more 
important now? (And thanks, Tom Macdonald, for raising the 
observations about the relationships of learning technology to 
learning numeracy.)

8. As I read the descriptions of "problem solving" on pages 34-35, 
the process resonates with a process that I believe is used by some 
visual artists. A sculptor, for example, has to "organize the 
information from the creative problem into a form or model that 
enables the artist to "see" the underlying structure of the problem. 
To do that, often sculptors make drawings, look for patterns, and 
make models. Has there been research on mathematical or numeracy 
problem solving and artistic problem solving and how these thinking 
processes might effectively be integrated and strengthen each other 
in K-12 schools or adult learning programs? (Thanks, Susan Kidd, for 
raising the issue of the relationship of numeracy to the arts.)

9. At the end of the paper you write about the importance of a 
"productive disposition" that is, learners having beliefs in their 
ability to do numeracy and in its usefulness to them, and having 
positive feelings about numeracy. Is this, the affective part of this 
component, more important than the other components?  Does it need to 
be addressed first, or is it addressed through a teaching and 
learning process that weaves together all components equally? Can 
this weaving process take place for learners who have very negative 
feelings about their ability to do numeracy?

David J. Rosen
Apecial Topics Discussion Leader
djrosen at comcast.net


On Sep 18, 2007, at 8:30 PM, Lynda Ginsburg wrote:


> Hi everyone, including the far flung ones!

>

> To me, I'm also not sure there's a meaningful difference between

> "numeracy" and "mathematical literacy" because we can really define 

> them

> as we like.

>

> But, I see an important political issue here in the US in regards 

> to the

> terminology. A while back there was a policy document called something

> like "From the margins to the mainstream." The primary focus of the 

> policy

> document was literacy, and there was a sentence stating something 

> to the

> effect that math was subsumed under "literacy." (The Adult Numeracy

> Network actually responded to this document protesting this limited 

> view

> of mathematical learning.)

>

> By talking about "mathematical literacy" within the adult basic ed

> environment, we are using the "L word" and thus continuing to relegate

> math/numeracy instruction and learning to a second tier level, 

> subsumed

> under the literacy umbrella. Since the field here has historically 

> been so

> focused on literacy, there has been limited attention to and 

> recognition

> that teaching and learning math is really very different from 

> teaching and

> learning reading/writing.

>

> Those of you from other countries have somehow managed to elevate

> "numeracy" to a relatively equal status with literacy. We couldn't

> convince COABE to title their new journal "Adult Literacy and 

> Numeracy,"

> tho the Aussies have one with both words in the title.

>

> So, I vote for the term Numeracy rather than Mathematical Literacy.

>

> I guess this counts as a rant.

>

> Best,

> Lynda

>

> -- 

> Lynda Ginsburg

> Senior Research Associate, MetroMath

> Rutgers University

> tel: 732-445-1409

> -------------------------------




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