Great articles, Cynthia, thanks for sharing them. 

Barb Garner


=====================
From: Cynthia Peters <cynthia_peters at worlded.org>
Date: 2007/11/26 Mon AM 10:47:27 CST
To: 
	RaceWomen and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1444]   Re: drop-outs

My daughter did not finish 9th grade. I suppose you could say she dropped out. But we felt she made a positive choice. I wrote a 3-part series about it on www.zmag.org (links below). We are a privileged family and so our context for this choice is different from most. Still, I believe there are lessons. - Cynthia

Part 1:
 http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2006-12/12peters.cfm 
 Part 2:
 http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2007-02/09peters.cfm 
Part 3:
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2007-03/22peters.cfm 

-- 
-- 

Cynthia Peters
Change Agent Editor
World Education
44 Farnsworth Street
Boston, MA  02210
 
tel: 617-482-9485
fax: 617-482-0617
email: cpeters at worlded.org 
 
Check out The Change Agent online at: 
www.nelrc.org/changeagent 



>>> On 11/26/2007 at 10:19 AM, in message

<a8e5ecbb47838dacdbd6942ed2ea939d at comcast.net>, Andrea Wilder
<andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote:

> Hi Andre, Daphne,

> 

> When school kids are taught in their home language, not the school 

> language, then I would say that they are being denied  knowledge of the 

> mainstream language.  Some would not like me saying this, doubtless, 

> but it is the way I do see it, after having listened to and read many 

> opinions.

> 

> Suppose those pregnant teenagers came to school, were educated 

> together, and learned how to work with their children within a school 

> setting?  Other places do this, why not every place?

> 

> I read in newspapers small vignettes of schools that work for poor 

> kids--they do the things for the children that parents who have more 

> money do for their own children, automatically.  The corders of schools 

> have to be elastic, including in their working day these additional 

> tasks.

> 

> Small schools that have succeeded:  1)	they are small and their classes 

> are small, 2) the teachers are knowledgeable in their subject areas. 3) 

> teachers check in with family members frequently, keeping strong ties 

> between students , parents, and school, 4 )  teachers assume that 

> children can learn, 5)  there is discipline and rules and expectations 

> about behavior.	

> 

> When you start with small children there is not a disposition that is 

> anti-school--you're starting with day care and what used to be called 

> "nursery school."

> 

> Are there people on this list serv who have managed, created, or worked 

> in schools with this model?  And that enroll teenage mothers as part of 

> a normal high school experience?

> 

> Andrea

> 

> On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:

> 

>> Hi Daphne:

>>  

>> Actually, this was one of the things that Allan Quigley focused on. He 

>> did studies and found that many k-12 students have a poor disposition 

>> towards traditional learning environments. He called them resistors. 

>> these are the students that end up dropping out. When they come to ABE 

>> contexts, they still have a poor disposition towards those 

>> environments that tend to repeat the same format as the k-12 system.

>>  

>> Ogbu also studied resistance of "involuntary minorities" towards 

>> traditional learning environments. he argued that "Involuntary 

>> minorities", or those that have a lower social status in a 

>> society (in California Chicanos and blacks) are forced by schools 

>> to adopt that cultural patterns of the hegemonic group. If they do 

>> they will succeed in school but they will betray their own. So, 

>> minorities are caught between acting "whitie" and succeeding in 

>> school, but being rejected but their own peers, or continue to belong 

>> among their peers and failing in school.  

>>  

>> Jim Cummins suggested additive educational models, where students 

>> continued to learn cultural and linguistic practices of their peers as 

>> well as the hegemonic practices. In Oakland, it was proposed that kids 

>> learn the African American Language System along with standard 

>> English, but many were offended by that. In many kinders and 

>> elementary charter schools in California they are teaching Spanish, 

>> along with Mexican history, culture, etc. many of those school have 

>> received bomb threats, insults, etc. In fact, there is a radio show 

>> that has targeted those schools and spews all kinds of racist talk.

>>  

>> There is a charter school that I believe that is called "Semillas del 

>> Corazon". It is in a poor mostly Latin neighborhood. I think that you 

>> can find it on youtube. they have recordings of the threats that they 

>> get, and they've had to close. 

>>  

>> Andres 

>>

>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

>> Sent: Sun 11/25/2007 6:52 PM

>> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov 

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1439] drop-outs

>>

>>

>> Andrea raises an important point-" we should interview the drop-outs 

>> to see why they have dropped out." Does anyone know of studies which 

>> were conducted with high school drop outs, asking them why they 

>> dropped out of school? Perhaps some of you have asked your learners 

>> this question and want to contribute what you have learned. What I 

>> have heard are issues related to gangs, pregnancy, illness, moving 

>> around a lot. I have never heard anyone specifically state anything 

>> about the educational system, even though most of the learners that I 

>> have interacted with read below a fifth grade level, and therefore did 

>> not benefit from the school system way before they dropped out. It 

>> would be interesting if anyone knows of any studies that focus on this 

>> type of issue.

>> Daphne

>>

>> >>> Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> 11/25/07 8:43 PM >>>

>> Hi Liz,

>>

>> It is late (for me) Sunday, so I will just say that we should interview

>> the drop-outs to see why they have dropped out. Also--kids know school

>> is important,, it is a cultural norm;  often pleasing the parents is in

>> there too.  No one wants to fail.

>>

>> Andrea

>>

>> On Nov 25, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Liz Hawkins wrote:

>>

>> > I think one of the problems with public education is that we often

>> > assume kids are fundamentally different from adults.  We assume that

>> > kids should and will go to school and try to succeed because they are

>> > required to do so and need to do so in order to get along in life;

>> > whereas adults presumably seek out education by choice.  However,

>> > making education compulsory for kids does not change the fact that

>> > students (of any age) will choose what they want to learn and how 

>> hard

>> > they will work to learn it based on a variety of factors. 

>> >

>> > Andre brought up the cultural/social issues that exist, and I

>> > certainly agree.  Students who see school as a place which offends 

>> and

>> > threatens their cultural ideals will struggle there.  When I taught 

>> in

>> > the public school system in S. Atlanta, I frequently had high school

>> > students (or even younger) who really needed to work (not in the

>> > future, but right then) in order to help support their families. 

>> > Although  I tried to be sensitive to these students' needs, I found

>> > myself insisting that education should be a priority, and in doing so

>> > without offering them any real solutions to their present dilemmas,

>> > alienating them.  At school, they are told they must succeed in 

>> school

>> > in order to have a hope for a better, more economically comfortable

>> > life, but that does not make sense to a child who knows she might not

>> > get to eat this weekend, that her little brother may not have shoes 

>> to

>> > wear this winter, or that her own baby will have no one to look after

>> > it if she goes to school every day and does all her homework instead

>> > of finding ways to make money.  Certainly these situations are not

>> > fair, but they are real, and if we want to improve education, we need

>> > to address these problems in the community as well.

>> >

>> > Dana mentioned the focus on testing as a fundamental problem in 

>> school

>> > systems, and this too is absolutely true, but the testing issue is

>> > representative of the same underlying issue--students fail to see a

>> > lack of relevance between what they are being told to learn and what

>> > they need to survive.  They do not understand (and neither do many

>> > teachers) why being able to pass a standardized test is important, 

>> and

>> > yet being able to pass the test is the primary incentive they are

>> > presented with as motivation to learn the material.  Having taught 

>> 9th

>> > and 10th graders, I know that there are many teachers who strive to

>> > make these connections and show their students how getting an

>> > education is truly, really, immediately and in the long-term,

>> > beneficial.  I was one of them, but honestly, more often than not I

>> > had a hard time seeing the relevance myself.

>> >

>> > So the issue remains that public school at present is not relevant to

>> > everyone.  I think that technical education programs, 

>> accelerated/dual

>> > enrollment programs, and magnet schools are all steps in the right

>> > direction toward making sure there are different types  of education

>> > available to meet different people's needs, but we need to do more. 

>> > If we can figure out what people really need and try to give it to

>> > them, perhaps parents and communities will again rally behind the

>> > educational system, providing local support and encouraging political

>> > changes at the state and national levels as well.  Rather than

>> > continuing to treat the symptoms of a poor educational system by

>> > prescribing medications (such as No Child Left Behind), many of which

>> > themselves have heinous side effects, we need to pull out the scalpel

>> > and operate on the core issues.

>> >

>> > -Liz

>> >

>> >

>> > Dana Donohue <dana.donohue at gmail.com> wrote:Hi Andre and Andrea.

>> >> Although I have never been a school teacher, I currently work on a

>> >> reading research project in several elementary schools in Atlanta. I

>> >> was curious about your statement, Andrea, that we still need to come

>> >> to an agreement about what the problems in the schools are. Excuse 

>> my

>> >> naivety, but is there still no consensus? Here are some of the major

>> >> problems that I have seen and have discussed with teachers. First

>> >> (and probably foremost), the focus on testing creates a lot of

>> >> apprehension and fear that if they (the classes and/or schools)

>> >> perform poorly, more of their funding will be taken away. Second,

>> >> there appears to be a lot of variability in the skills and expertise

>> >> between both schools and teachers. I'm guessing that this, too, may

>> >> stem from the funding issue. Lastly, I think that especially in the

>> >> poorer areas, there lacks that important bond between the schools 

>> and

>> >> the parents. These bonds may encourage children to stay engaged in

>> >> the learning process. I suppose that a good place to start to fix

>> >> these problems would be a push by educators to overhaul or do away

>> >> with No Child Left Behind. Of course, I'm not a teacher and so I am

>> >> curious about what teachers think about how to fix the myriad of

>> >> issues that hinder children's education.

>> >> 

>> >> Dana

>> >>

>> >> 

>> >> On 11/24/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote: Andre--

>> >>>

>> >>> I understand what you are saying.  I wrote what I did because I 

>> think

>> >>> there is enough experience and brain power on this list serv and

>> >>> others

>> >>> to light up a good-sized city.  Where I live, school boards get

>> >>> elected. They are supposed to be the link between the school and 

>> us,

>> >>> and they are answerable to us--us meaning the people who elected

>> >>> them.

>> >>> Here, the "us" are the extremely knowledgeable members of this list

>> >>> serv.  We know the consequences of school failure.  This is useful

>> >>> knowledge, not only for the dropouts, but what may be behind the 

>> drop

>> >>> outs.  I am convinced that groups of people with this knowledge, in

>> >>> our

>> >>>  communities, can make a difference.   I used to be a school 

>> teacher,

>> >>> too.  We first must come to some agreements as to what the problems

>> >>> are, then prioritize and find out where to start.

>> >>>

>> >>> Andrea

>> >>>

>> >>> On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Andre Whitmore wrote:

>> >>>

>> >>> > Andrea

>> >>> > I am a former school teacher and I believe that the school system

>> >>> > in and of itself is the reason why so many students fail. The

>> >>> > schooling process is designed to ensure that students are

>> >>> socialized

>> >>> > to acquire an American cultural identity, which for many of the

>> >>> > students is an unrealistic goal for them. It has become 

>> increasing

>> >>> > difficult for students to envisionhow they can actively 

>> participate

>> >>> > and succeed in this culture. Jobs, occupations, and success are 

>> no

>> >>> > longer consistent with education. The educational requirements 

>> have

>> >>> > become too demanding and do not offer any guarantee for a job. 

>> Many

>> >>> > minority students have observed how their family members and

>> >>> people in

>> >>> > the community have sought education that leads to poverty still.

>> >>> The

>> >>> > schooling process should offer students the opportunity ability 

>> to

>> >>> > become socialized in their culture so that they can associate 

>> real

>> >>> > significance to their education. furthermore, American culture

>> >>> > singifies free market and free enterprise opportunities, but the

>> >>>  > schooling process does not place emphasis on this aspect. Most

>> >>> public

>> >>> > schools teach students to become apoorly trained labor force that

>> >>> > remains dependent on the corporate structure. Simply put, 

>> students

>> >>> > will continue to resist public education until education in this

>> >>> > country receives a make-over.

>> >>> > Andre

>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----

>> >>> > From: Andrea Wilder < andreawilder at comcast.net>

>> >>> > To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race

>> >>> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>> >>> > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:29:06 PM

>> >>> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1429] Changing schools

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Hi everyone,

>> >>> >

>> >>> > I think it is really important to find out which types of 

>> students

>> >>> in

>> >>> > our local schools aren't doing well and to change local school

>> >>> behavior

>> >>> > so all students can succeed.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Andrea

>> >>> >

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