Hi Cynthia,

I read all your reports.  I worked for the principal of a Boston Middle 
School for 3 years, and I recognize what you say.  I felt I couldn't 
speak out about education unless I had had this experience in Boston, 
so this is what I did.  The first school goal is crowd control.

The problems are enormous.  I don't know if things changed under 
Payzant.

If those of you reading this want another view of what is possible, 
google Boston.Com, then "Town-gown Triumph" and find an article about 
how Clark University works with kids.  Now, this article is written 
from the outside, but there is still a lot about the inside.   What do 
you think?

By the way, I cannot imagine a harder job, physically and emotionally, 
than school teaching.  The teacher is "on" for 24/7  for 9 or 10 days a 
year.  My guess is that the teachers you talked with were  totally 
fried.

Andrea

On Nov 26, 2007, at 11:47 AM, Cynthia Peters wrote:


> My daughter did not finish 9th grade. I suppose you could say she 

> dropped out. But we felt she made a positive choice. I wrote a 3-part 

> series about it on www.zmag.org (links below). We are a privileged 

> family and so our context for this choice is different from most. 

> Still, I believe there are lessons. - Cynthia

>

> Part 1:

>  http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2006-12/12peters.cfm

>  Part 2:

>  http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2007-02/09peters.cfm

> Part 3:

> http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2007-03/22peters.cfm

>

> -- 

> -- 

>

> Cynthia Peters

> Change Agent Editor

> World Education

> 44 Farnsworth Street

> Boston, MA  02210

>

> tel: 617-482-9485

> fax: 617-482-0617

> email: cpeters at worlded.org

>

> Check out The Change Agent online at:

> www.nelrc.org/changeagent

>

>

>>>> On 11/26/2007 at 10:19 AM, in message

> <a8e5ecbb47838dacdbd6942ed2ea939d at comcast.net>, Andrea Wilder

> <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote:

>> Hi Andre, Daphne,

>>

>> When school kids are taught in their home language, not the school

>> language, then I would say that they are being denied  knowledge of 

>> the

>> mainstream language.  Some would not like me saying this, doubtless,

>> but it is the way I do see it, after having listened to and read many

>> opinions.

>>

>> Suppose those pregnant teenagers came to school, were educated

>> together, and learned how to work with their children within a school

>> setting?  Other places do this, why not every place?

>>

>> I read in newspapers small vignettes of schools that work for poor

>> kids--they do the things for the children that parents who have more

>> money do for their own children, automatically.  The corders of 

>> schools

>> have to be elastic, including in their working day these additional

>> tasks.

>>

>> Small schools that have succeeded:  1)	they are small and their 

>> classes

>> are small, 2) the teachers are knowledgeable in their subject areas. 

>> 3)

>> teachers check in with family members frequently, keeping strong ties

>> between students , parents, and school, 4 )  teachers assume that

>> children can learn, 5)  there is discipline and rules and expectations

>> about behavior.	

>>

>> When you start with small children there is not a disposition that is

>> anti-school--you're starting with day care and what used to be called

>> "nursery school."

>>

>> Are there people on this list serv who have managed, created, or 

>> worked

>> in schools with this model?  And that enroll teenage mothers as part 

>> of

>> a normal high school experience?

>>

>> Andrea

>>

>> On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:

>>

>>> Hi Daphne:

>>>

>>> Actually, this was one of the things that Allan Quigley focused on. 

>>> He

>>> did studies and found that many k-12 students have a poor disposition

>>> towards traditional learning environments. He called them resistors.

>>> these are the students that end up dropping out. When they come to 

>>> ABE

>>> contexts, they still have a poor disposition towards those

>>> environments that tend to repeat the same format as the k-12 system.

>>>

>>> Ogbu also studied resistance of "involuntary minorities" towards

>>> traditional learning environments. he argued that "Involuntary

>>> minorities", or those that have a lower social status in a

>>> society (in California Chicanos and blacks) are forced by schools

>>> to adopt that cultural patterns of the hegemonic group. If they do

>>> they will succeed in school but they will betray their own. So,

>>> minorities are caught between acting "whitie" and succeeding in

>>> school, but being rejected but their own peers, or continue to belong

>>> among their peers and failing in school.

>>>

>>> Jim Cummins suggested additive educational models, where students

>>> continued to learn cultural and linguistic practices of their peers 

>>> as

>>> well as the hegemonic practices. In Oakland, it was proposed that 

>>> kids

>>> learn the African American Language System along with standard

>>> English, but many were offended by that. In many kinders and

>>> elementary charter schools in California they are teaching Spanish,

>>> along with Mexican history, culture, etc. many of those school have

>>> received bomb threats, insults, etc. In fact, there is a radio show

>>> that has targeted those schools and spews all kinds of racist talk.

>>>

>>> There is a charter school that I believe that is called "Semillas del

>>> Corazon". It is in a poor mostly Latin neighborhood. I think that you

>>> can find it on youtube. they have recordings of the threats that they

>>> get, and they've had to close.

>>>

>>> Andres

>>>

>>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

>>> Sent: Sun 11/25/2007 6:52 PM

>>> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1439] drop-outs

>>>

>>>

>>> Andrea raises an important point-" we should interview the drop-outs

>>> to see why they have dropped out." Does anyone know of studies which

>>> were conducted with high school drop outs, asking them why they

>>> dropped out of school? Perhaps some of you have asked your learners

>>> this question and want to contribute what you have learned. What I

>>> have heard are issues related to gangs, pregnancy, illness, moving

>>> around a lot. I have never heard anyone specifically state anything

>>> about the educational system, even though most of the learners that I

>>> have interacted with read below a fifth grade level, and therefore 

>>> did

>>> not benefit from the school system way before they dropped out. It

>>> would be interesting if anyone knows of any studies that focus on 

>>> this

>>> type of issue.

>>> Daphne

>>>

>>>>>> Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> 11/25/07 8:43 PM >>>

>>> Hi Liz,

>>>

>>> It is late (for me) Sunday, so I will just say that we should 

>>> interview

>>> the drop-outs to see why they have dropped out. Also--kids know 

>>> school

>>> is important,, it is a cultural norm;  often pleasing the parents is 

>>> in

>>> there too.  No one wants to fail.

>>>

>>> Andrea

>>>

>>> On Nov 25, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Liz Hawkins wrote:

>>>

>>>> I think one of the problems with public education is that we often

>>>> assume kids are fundamentally different from adults.  We assume that

>>>> kids should and will go to school and try to succeed because they 

>>>> are

>>>> required to do so and need to do so in order to get along in life;

>>>> whereas adults presumably seek out education by choice.  However,

>>>> making education compulsory for kids does not change the fact that

>>>> students (of any age) will choose what they want to learn and how

>>> hard

>>>> they will work to learn it based on a variety of factors.

>>>>

>>>> Andre brought up the cultural/social issues that exist, and I

>>>> certainly agree.  Students who see school as a place which offends

>>> and

>>>> threatens their cultural ideals will struggle there.  When I taught

>>> in

>>>> the public school system in S. Atlanta, I frequently had high school

>>>> students (or even younger) who really needed to work (not in the

>>>> future, but right then) in order to help support their families.

>>>> Although  I tried to be sensitive to these students' needs, I found

>>>> myself insisting that education should be a priority, and in doing 

>>>> so

>>>> without offering them any real solutions to their present dilemmas,

>>>> alienating them.  At school, they are told they must succeed in

>>> school

>>>> in order to have a hope for a better, more economically comfortable

>>>> life, but that does not make sense to a child who knows she might 

>>>> not

>>>> get to eat this weekend, that her little brother may not have shoes

>>> to

>>>> wear this winter, or that her own baby will have no one to look 

>>>> after

>>>> it if she goes to school every day and does all her homework instead

>>>> of finding ways to make money.  Certainly these situations are not

>>>> fair, but they are real, and if we want to improve education, we 

>>>> need

>>>> to address these problems in the community as well.

>>>>

>>>> Dana mentioned the focus on testing as a fundamental problem in

>>> school

>>>> systems, and this too is absolutely true, but the testing issue is

>>>> representative of the same underlying issue--students fail to see a

>>>> lack of relevance between what they are being told to learn and what

>>>> they need to survive.  They do not understand (and neither do many

>>>> teachers) why being able to pass a standardized test is important,

>>> and

>>>> yet being able to pass the test is the primary incentive they are

>>>> presented with as motivation to learn the material.  Having taught

>>> 9th

>>>> and 10th graders, I know that there are many teachers who strive to

>>>> make these connections and show their students how getting an

>>>> education is truly, really, immediately and in the long-term,

>>>> beneficial.  I was one of them, but honestly, more often than not I

>>>> had a hard time seeing the relevance myself.

>>>>

>>>> So the issue remains that public school at present is not relevant 

>>>> to

>>>> everyone.  I think that technical education programs,

>>> accelerated/dual

>>>> enrollment programs, and magnet schools are all steps in the right

>>>> direction toward making sure there are different types  of education

>>>> available to meet different people's needs, but we need to do more.

>>>> If we can figure out what people really need and try to give it to

>>>> them, perhaps parents and communities will again rally behind the

>>>> educational system, providing local support and encouraging 

>>>> political

>>>> changes at the state and national levels as well.  Rather than

>>>> continuing to treat the symptoms of a poor educational system by

>>>> prescribing medications (such as No Child Left Behind), many of 

>>>> which

>>>> themselves have heinous side effects, we need to pull out the 

>>>> scalpel

>>>> and operate on the core issues.

>>>>

>>>> -Liz

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Dana Donohue <dana.donohue at gmail.com> wrote:Hi Andre and Andrea.

>>>>> Although I have never been a school teacher, I currently work on a

>>>>> reading research project in several elementary schools in Atlanta. 

>>>>> I

>>>>> was curious about your statement, Andrea, that we still need to 

>>>>> come

>>>>> to an agreement about what the problems in the schools are. Excuse

>>> my

>>>>> naivety, but is there still no consensus? Here are some of the 

>>>>> major

>>>>> problems that I have seen and have discussed with teachers. First

>>>>> (and probably foremost), the focus on testing creates a lot of

>>>>> apprehension and fear that if they (the classes and/or schools)

>>>>> perform poorly, more of their funding will be taken away. Second,

>>>>> there appears to be a lot of variability in the skills and 

>>>>> expertise

>>>>> between both schools and teachers. I'm guessing that this, too, may

>>>>> stem from the funding issue. Lastly, I think that especially in the

>>>>> poorer areas, there lacks that important bond between the schools

>>> and

>>>>> the parents. These bonds may encourage children to stay engaged in

>>>>> the learning process. I suppose that a good place to start to fix

>>>>> these problems would be a push by educators to overhaul or do away

>>>>> with No Child Left Behind. Of course, I'm not a teacher and so I am

>>>>> curious about what teachers think about how to fix the myriad of

>>>>> issues that hinder children's education.

>>>>>

>>>>> Dana

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> On 11/24/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote: 

>>>>> Andre--

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I understand what you are saying.  I wrote what I did because I

>>> think

>>>>>> there is enough experience and brain power on this list serv and

>>>>>> others

>>>>>> to light up a good-sized city.  Where I live, school boards get

>>>>>> elected. They are supposed to be the link between the school and

>>> us,

>>>>>> and they are answerable to us--us meaning the people who elected

>>>>>> them.

>>>>>> Here, the "us" are the extremely knowledgeable members of this 

>>>>>> list

>>>>>> serv.  We know the consequences of school failure.  This is useful

>>>>>> knowledge, not only for the dropouts, but what may be behind the

>>> drop

>>>>>> outs.  I am convinced that groups of people with this knowledge, 

>>>>>> in

>>>>>> our

>>>>>>  communities, can make a difference.   I used to be a school

>>> teacher,

>>>>>> too.  We first must come to some agreements as to what the 

>>>>>> problems

>>>>>> are, then prioritize and find out where to start.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Andrea

>>>>>>

>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Andre Whitmore wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Andrea

>>>>>>> I am a former school teacher and I believe that the school system

>>>>>>> in and of itself is the reason why so many students fail. The

>>>>>>> schooling process is designed to ensure that students are

>>>>>> socialized

>>>>>>> to acquire an American cultural identity, which for many of the

>>>>>>> students is an unrealistic goal for them. It has become

>>> increasing

>>>>>>> difficult for students to envisionhow they can actively

>>> participate

>>>>>>> and succeed in this culture. Jobs, occupations, and success are

>>> no

>>>>>>> longer consistent with education. The educational requirements

>>> have

>>>>>>> become too demanding and do not offer any guarantee for a job.

>>> Many

>>>>>>> minority students have observed how their family members and

>>>>>> people in

>>>>>>> the community have sought education that leads to poverty still.

>>>>>> The

>>>>>>> schooling process should offer students the opportunity ability

>>> to

>>>>>>> become socialized in their culture so that they can associate

>>> real

>>>>>>> significance to their education. furthermore, American culture

>>>>>>> singifies free market and free enterprise opportunities, but the

>>>>>>> schooling process does not place emphasis on this aspect. Most

>>>>>> public

>>>>>>> schools teach students to become apoorly trained labor force that

>>>>>>> remains dependent on the corporate structure. Simply put,

>>> students

>>>>>>> will continue to resist public education until education in this

>>>>>>> country receives a make-over.

>>>>>>> Andre

>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----

>>>>>>> From: Andrea Wilder < andreawilder at comcast.net>

>>>>>>> To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race

>>>>>>> <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:29:06 PM

>>>>>>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1429] Changing schools

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Hi everyone,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I think it is really important to find out which types of

>>> students

>>>>>> in

>>>>>>> our local schools aren't doing well and to change local school

>>>>>> behavior

>>>>>>> so all students can succeed.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Andrea

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>> National Institute for Literacy

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>>>>>>>

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>>>>>

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