Liz--

It is even later, Sunday.  The conditions you describe are awful.   
Schools must respond to real circumstances, but often they don't have  
the money, either.  Somewhere there is a saying about looking upstream  
to find out why there are so many bodies in the river.  Adult educators  
are in a UNIQUE position--from their own classrooms they can come to  
some conclusions about  why the bodies got in the river.  I think we  
should make a new graphic, one that is a circle, in which the people at  
the end of the line--adult educators--circle back to put their  
knowledge into the school system.  We usually think in a linear fashion  
about these problems, so the accumulated knowledge isn't used.

Andrea

On Nov 25, 2007, at 8:43 PM, Andrea Wilder wrote:


> Hi Liz,

>

> It is late (for me) Sunday, so I will just say that we should  

> interview the drop-outs to see why they have dropped out. Also--kids  

> know school is important,, it is a cultural norm;  often pleasing the  

> parents is in there too.  No one wants to fail.

>

> Andrea

>

> On Nov 25, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Liz Hawkins wrote:

>

>> I think one of the problems with public education is that we often  

>> assume kids are fundamentally different from adults.  We assume that  

>> kids should and will go to school and try to succeed because they are  

>> required to do so and need to do so in order to get along in life;  

>> whereas adults presumably seek out education by choice.  However,  

>> making education compulsory for kids does not change the fact that  

>> students (of any age) will choose what they want to learn and how  

>> hard they will work to learn it based on a variety of factors.  

>>

>> Andre brought up the cultural/social issues that exist, and I  

>> certainly agree.  Students who see school as a place which offends  

>> and threatens their cultural ideals will struggle there.  When I  

>> taught in the public school system in S. Atlanta, I frequently had  

>> high school students (or even younger) who really needed to work (not  

>> in the future, but right then) in order to help support their  

>> families.  Although  I tried to be sensitive to these students'  

>> needs, I found myself insisting that education should be a priority,  

>> and in doing so without offering them any real solutions to their  

>> present dilemmas, alienating them.  At school, they are told they  

>> must succeed in school in order to have a hope for a better, more  

>> economically comfortable life, but that does not make sense to a  

>> child who knows she might not get to eat this weekend, that her  

>> little brother may not have shoes to wear this winter, or that her  

>> own baby will have no one to look after it if she goes to school  

>> every day and does all her homework instead of finding ways to make  

>> money.  Certainly these situations are not fair, but they are real,  

>> and if we want to improve education, we need to address these  

>> problems in the community as well.

>>

>> Dana mentioned the focus on testing as a fundamental problem in  

>> school systems, and this too is absolutely true, but the testing  

>> issue is representative of the same underlying issue--students fail  

>> to see a lack of relevance between what they are being told to learn  

>> and what they need to survive.  They do not understand (and neither  

>> do many teachers) why being able to pass a standardized test is  

>> important, and yet being able to pass the test is the primary  

>> incentive they are presented with as motivation to learn the  

>> material.  Having taught 9th and 10th graders, I know that there are  

>> many teachers who strive to make these connections and show their  

>> students how getting an education is truly, really, immediately and  

>> in the long-term, beneficial.  I was one of them, but honestly, more  

>> often than not I had a hard time seeing the relevance myself. 

>>

>> So the issue remains that public school at present is not relevant to  

>> everyone.  I think that technical education programs,  

>> accelerated/dual enrollment programs, and magnet schools are all  

>> steps in the right direction toward making sure there are different  

>> types  of education available to meet different people's needs, but  

>> we need to do more.  If we can figure out what people really need and  

>> try to give it to them, perhaps parents and communities will again  

>> rally behind the educational system, providing local support and  

>> encouraging political changes at the state and national levels as  

>> well.  Rather than continuing to treat the symptoms of a poor  

>> educational system by prescribing medications (such as No Child Left  

>> Behind), many of which themselves have heinous side effects, we need  

>> to pull out the scalpel and operate on the core issues.

>>

>> -Liz

>>

>>

>> Dana Donohue <dana.donohue at gmail.com> wrote:Hi Andre and Andrea.

>>> Although I have never been a school teacher, I currently work on a  

>>> reading research project in several elementary schools in Atlanta. I  

>>> was curious about your statement, Andrea, that we still need to come  

>>> to an agreement about what the problems in the schools are. Excuse  

>>> my naivety, but is there still no consensus? Here are some of the  

>>> major problems that I have seen and have discussed with teachers.  

>>> First (and probably foremost), the focus on testing creates a lot of  

>>> apprehension and fear that if they (the classes and/or schools)  

>>> perform poorly, more of their funding will be taken away. Second,  

>>> there appears to be a lot of variability in the skills and expertise  

>>> between both schools and teachers. I'm guessing that this, too, may  

>>> stem from the funding issue. Lastly, I think that especially in the  

>>> poorer areas, there lacks that important bond between the schools  

>>> and the parents. These bonds may encourage children to stay engaged  

>>> in the learning process. I suppose that a good place to start to fix  

>>> these problems would be a push by educators to overhaul or do away  

>>> with No Child Left Behind. Of course, I'm not a teacher and so I am  

>>> curious about what teachers think about how to fix the myriad of  

>>> issues that hinder children's education.

>>>  

>>> Dana

>>>

>>>  

>>> On 11/24/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote: Andre--

>>>>

>>>> I understand what you are saying.  I wrote what I did because I  

>>>> think

>>>> there is enough experience and brain power on this list serv and  

>>>> others

>>>> to light up a good-sized city.  Where I live, school boards get

>>>> elected. They are supposed to be the link between the school and us,

>>>> and they are answerable to us--us meaning the people who elected  

>>>> them.

>>>> Here, the "us" are the extremely knowledgeable members of this list

>>>> serv.  We know the consequences of school failure.  This is useful

>>>> knowledge, not only for the dropouts, but what may be behind the  

>>>> drop

>>>> outs.  I am convinced that groups of people with this knowledge, in  

>>>> our

>>>>  communities, can make a difference.   I used to be a school  

>>>> teacher,

>>>> too.  We first must come to some agreements as to what the problems

>>>> are, then prioritize and find out where to start.

>>>>

>>>> Andrea

>>>>

>>>> On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Andre Whitmore wrote:

>>>>

>>>> > Andrea

>>>> > I am a former school teacher and I believe that the school system

>>>> > in and of itself is the reason why so many students fail. The

>>>> > schooling process is designed to ensure that students are  

>>>> socialized

>>>> > to acquire an American cultural identity, which for many of the

>>>> > students is an unrealistic goal for them. It has become increasing

>>>> > difficult for students to envisionhow they can actively  

>>>> participate

>>>> > and succeed in this culture. Jobs, occupations, and success are no

>>>> > longer consistent with education. The educational requirements  

>>>> have

>>>> > become too demanding and do not offer any guarantee for a job.  

>>>> Many

>>>> > minority students have observed how their family members and  

>>>> people in

>>>> > the community have sought education that leads to poverty still.  

>>>> The

>>>> > schooling process should offer students the opportunity ability to

>>>> > become socialized in their culture so that they can associate real

>>>> > significance to their education. furthermore, American culture

>>>> > singifies free market and free enterprise opportunities, but the

>>>>  > schooling process does not place emphasis on this aspect. Most  

>>>> public

>>>> > schools teach students to become apoorly trained labor force that

>>>> > remains dependent on the corporate structure. Simply put, students

>>>> > will continue to resist public education until education in this

>>>> > country receives a make-over.

>>>> > Andre

>>>> > ----- Original Message ----

>>>> > From: Andrea Wilder < andreawilder at comcast.net>

>>>> > To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race

>>>> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>>>> > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:29:06 PM

>>>> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1429] Changing schools

>>>> >

>>>> > Hi everyone,

>>>> >

>>>> > I think it is really important to find out which types of  

>>>> students in

>>>> > our local schools aren't doing well and to change local school  

>>>> behavior

>>>> > so all students can succeed.

>>>> >

>>>> > Andrea

>>>> >

>>>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>>>> > National Institute for Literacy

>>>> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>>>> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>>> >

>>>> >

>>>> > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo  

>>>> Mobile.

>>>> > Try it now.----------------------------------------------------

>>>> > National Institute for Literacy

>>>> > Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>>>> > PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

>>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>>

>>>  ----------------------------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile.  

>> Try it now.----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ 

>> povertyracewomen----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 11172 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/diversity/attachments/20071125/0d8c08ed/attachment.bin