Hi Liz,

It is late (for me) Sunday, so I will just say that we should interview 
the drop-outs to see why they have dropped out. Also--kids know school 
is important,, it is a cultural norm;  often pleasing the parents is in 
there too.  No one wants to fail.

Andrea

On Nov 25, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Liz Hawkins wrote:


> I think one of the problems with public education is that we often 

> assume kids are fundamentally different from adults.  We assume that 

> kids should and will go to school and try to succeed because they are 

> required to do so and need to do so in order to get along in life; 

> whereas adults presumably seek out education by choice.  However, 

> making education compulsory for kids does not change the fact that 

> students (of any age) will choose what they want to learn and how hard 

> they will work to learn it based on a variety of factors.  

>

> Andre brought up the cultural/social issues that exist, and I 

> certainly agree.  Students who see school as a place which offends and 

> threatens their cultural ideals will struggle there.  When I taught in 

> the public school system in S. Atlanta, I frequently had high school 

> students (or even younger) who really needed to work (not in the 

> future, but right then) in order to help support their families.  

> Although  I tried to be sensitive to these students' needs, I found 

> myself insisting that education should be a priority, and in doing so 

> without offering them any real solutions to their present dilemmas, 

> alienating them.  At school, they are told they must succeed in school 

> in order to have a hope for a better, more economically comfortable 

> life, but that does not make sense to a child who knows she might not 

> get to eat this weekend, that her little brother may not have shoes to 

> wear this winter, or that her own baby will have no one to look after 

> it if she goes to school every day and does all her homework instead 

> of finding ways to make money.  Certainly these situations are not 

> fair, but they are real, and if we want to improve education, we need 

> to address these problems in the community as well.

>

> Dana mentioned the focus on testing as a fundamental problem in school 

> systems, and this too is absolutely true, but the testing issue is 

> representative of the same underlying issue--students fail to see a 

> lack of relevance between what they are being told to learn and what 

> they need to survive.  They do not understand (and neither do many 

> teachers) why being able to pass a standardized test is important, and 

> yet being able to pass the test is the primary incentive they are 

> presented with as motivation to learn the material.  Having taught 9th 

> and 10th graders, I know that there are many teachers who strive to 

> make these connections and show their students how getting an 

> education is truly, really, immediately and in the long-term, 

> beneficial.  I was one of them, but honestly, more often than not I 

> had a hard time seeing the relevance myself. 

>

> So the issue remains that public school at present is not relevant to 

> everyone.  I think that technical education programs, accelerated/dual 

> enrollment programs, and magnet schools are all steps in the right 

> direction toward making sure there are different types  of education 

> available to meet different people's needs, but we need to do more.  

> If we can figure out what people really need and try to give it to 

> them, perhaps parents and communities will again rally behind the 

> educational system, providing local support and encouraging political 

> changes at the state and national levels as well.  Rather than 

> continuing to treat the symptoms of a poor educational system by 

> prescribing medications (such as No Child Left Behind), many of which 

> themselves have heinous side effects, we need to pull out the scalpel 

> and operate on the core issues.

>

> -Liz

>

>

> Dana Donohue <dana.donohue at gmail.com> wrote:Hi Andre and Andrea.

>> Although I have never been a school teacher, I currently work on a 

>> reading research project in several elementary schools in Atlanta. I 

>> was curious about your statement, Andrea, that we still need to come 

>> to an agreement about what the problems in the schools are. Excuse my 

>> naivety, but is there still no consensus? Here are some of the major 

>> problems that I have seen and have discussed with teachers. First 

>> (and probably foremost), the focus on testing creates a lot of 

>> apprehension and fear that if they (the classes and/or schools) 

>> perform poorly, more of their funding will be taken away. Second, 

>> there appears to be a lot of variability in the skills and expertise 

>> between both schools and teachers. I'm guessing that this, too, may 

>> stem from the funding issue. Lastly, I think that especially in the 

>> poorer areas, there lacks that important bond between the schools and 

>> the parents. These bonds may encourage children to stay engaged in 

>> the learning process. I suppose that a good place to start to fix 

>> these problems would be a push by educators to overhaul or do away 

>> with No Child Left Behind. Of course, I'm not a teacher and so I am 

>> curious about what teachers think about how to fix the myriad of 

>> issues that hinder children's education.

>>  

>> Dana

>>

>>  

>> On 11/24/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote: Andre--

>>>

>>> I understand what you are saying.  I wrote what I did because I think

>>> there is enough experience and brain power on this list serv and 

>>> others

>>> to light up a good-sized city.  Where I live, school boards get

>>> elected. They are supposed to be the link between the school and us,

>>> and they are answerable to us--us meaning the people who elected 

>>> them.

>>> Here, the "us" are the extremely knowledgeable members of this list

>>> serv.  We know the consequences of school failure.  This is useful

>>> knowledge, not only for the dropouts, but what may be behind the drop

>>> outs.  I am convinced that groups of people with this knowledge, in 

>>> our

>>>  communities, can make a difference.   I used to be a school teacher,

>>> too.  We first must come to some agreements as to what the problems

>>> are, then prioritize and find out where to start.

>>>

>>> Andrea

>>>

>>> On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Andre Whitmore wrote:

>>>

>>> > Andrea

>>> > I am a former school teacher and I believe that the school system

>>> > in and of itself is the reason why so many students fail. The

>>> > schooling process is designed to ensure that students are 

>>> socialized

>>> > to acquire an American cultural identity, which for many of the

>>> > students is an unrealistic goal for them. It has become increasing

>>> > difficult for students to envisionhow they can actively participate

>>> > and succeed in this culture. Jobs, occupations, and success are no

>>> > longer consistent with education. The educational requirements have

>>> > become too demanding and do not offer any guarantee for a job. Many

>>> > minority students have observed how their family members and 

>>> people in

>>> > the community have sought education that leads to poverty still. 

>>> The

>>> > schooling process should offer students the opportunity ability to

>>> > become socialized in their culture so that they can associate real

>>> > significance to their education. furthermore, American culture

>>> > singifies free market and free enterprise opportunities, but the

>>>  > schooling process does not place emphasis on this aspect. Most 

>>> public

>>> > schools teach students to become apoorly trained labor force that

>>> > remains dependent on the corporate structure. Simply put, students

>>> > will continue to resist public education until education in this

>>> > country receives a make-over.

>>> > Andre

>>> > ----- Original Message ----

>>> > From: Andrea Wilder < andreawilder at comcast.net>

>>> > To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race

>>> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

>>> > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:29:06 PM

>>> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1429] Changing schools

>>> >

>>> > Hi everyone,

>>> >

>>> > I think it is really important to find out which types of students 

>>> in

>>> > our local schools aren't doing well and to change local school 

>>> behavior

>>> > so all students can succeed.

>>> >

>>> > Andrea

>>> >

>>> > ----------------------------------------------------

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>>> >

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>>

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